Risk Matters Podcast | Renewable energy and insurance

Episode 2

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Welcome to Risk Matters,

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the insurance podcast

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brought to you by DWF

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and your global guide

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to the latest trends

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and issues in the insurance

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and reinsurance industry.

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Join us

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as we explore topical issues,

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emerging technologies,

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and the innovative strategies

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that are shaping the global future

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of insurance.

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Welcome

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to Risk Matters,

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the insurance podcast from DWF.

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Today we'll be talking about

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renewable energy insurance.

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I am Franco

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D'Andrea, a partner in the DWF

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Global Risk Team based in London.

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I'm joined here with Gary Walkling,

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a fellow partner in the DWF

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Global Risk Team. Hello, Gary.

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Hi, Franco.

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And we're joined today

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with a very special guest, Adam Reed,

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who is the Global Leader

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for Offshore Renewables and Upstream Energy

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at Allianz Commercial. Welcome, Adam.

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I'm happy to be here. Thanks.

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I'd like to start with an opening quote.

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I just want to thank you all

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for all you're willing to do,

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and particularly the private companies

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who are stepping up.

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And it's big time where stepping up.

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We're talking billions of dollars.

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We're not just talking

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a little bit of money.

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We're talking billions.

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And I think

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we're going to get a lot done.

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And I can't

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tell you the last time

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I've been this excited about something

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we're about to do,

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because I think we can change,

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literally begin to change the nature

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of how we generate industry.

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Excuse me? Generate energy.

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And the industry is stepping up.

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Now, that,

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of course, was

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President Biden on the 23rd of June, 2022

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at a meeting of the federal state

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Offshore Wind Implementation Partnership.

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So, Adam,

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with that in mind, is

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President Biden right

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to be so excited

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about the future of offshore wind?

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Yeah,

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I mean,

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I think everybody should be excited

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about offshore wind.

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You know,

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it's really

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one of the most transformational

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kind of things, around,

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supply of energy for,

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you know, the world, right?

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I mean,

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at a time when everybody's

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focused on energy security,

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and having their own source of power,

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you know, it's something that

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goes a long way towards that, right?

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And so, yeah.

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And you seen it

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particularly in, in the States

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where they're very ambitious targets.

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Is that something that you are

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conscious of in your role?

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conscious of it?

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Yeah.

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I mean, the US, it's

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a bit challenging as far as offshore renewables goes.

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Certainly we've seen shortages in terms

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of, you know, vessels.

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You've now got the Jones Act complications

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and also exposure to cat risk,

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which perhaps we haven't had in Europe.

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Yeah.

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but, you know,

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there's also a lot of opportunity there.

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So it's definitely an area

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that we're keen on and,

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and you know, looking at closely.

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Yeah. Adam.

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So outside of the US

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where some of the other bigger

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areas for geographical growth

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as far as offshore wind goes,

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Europe has a huge amount of installed

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capacity, right?

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I mean, that was the starting point for,

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a lot of the offshore

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wind farm developments.

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they've been around for

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quite a while now.

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I think more recently,

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you know,

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we've seen a lot of growth in Asia,

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particularly, Taiwan and then,

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Japan, Korea coming up there a bit,

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maybe a bit further back.

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And then, yeah,

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China has got huge, targets

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for offshore wind

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and actually

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has been installing some of the,

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the largest or the largest turbines that,

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you know,

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we've seen anywhere in the world.

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so those areas definitely.

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But again, you know,

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similarly to the US, you've got that CAT

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element of exposure as well, which,

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you know,

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we don't have that so much in Europe.

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So, and stepping back from

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maybe some of the bigger picture

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on a more personal,

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bit can you tell us a bit

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about your,

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route into the industry

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and how you became

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a renewable energy underwriter?

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Yeah. For sure.

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so, yeah,

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started out in property actually.

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Probably, quite a long time ago now.

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Yeah.

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Moved into upstream about 15 years ago.

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Something like that.

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And, at that time, you know,

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offshore renewables

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wasn't really a thing.

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learned a lot, about the kind of marine

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type exposures

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that you have in, in upstream

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oil and gas.

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And then,

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you know, obviously,

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seeing the synergies

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between that kind of risk

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and the risks that you see

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in offshore wind.

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When the opportunity came up

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to get involved in that,

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then it was a natural fit.

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And I think,

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you know, we're seeing

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that more broadly across the insurance

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market as well.

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There's a lot of,

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crossover from individuals.

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And also just general principles.

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So,

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I think one of the themes of,

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that we wanted to draw out

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in during this podcast,

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and hopefully we'll draw out

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in the course of the discussion, is

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whether we are all, as an industry,

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learning the lessons

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that have already been learnt

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from things

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like oil and gas

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or the marine market

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or the property market.

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because it seems to us

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from the outside as service

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providers to the industry that,

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there's a lot of

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knowledge base,

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both within the renewables market industry,

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but also within the insurance market as well.

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And just open question

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as to whether we

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could be doing more to establish

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and to overlap

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and to share knowledge

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for lessons, as I say

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that have been learned before, perhaps.

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People often say, talk about kind of,

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you know, synergies in terms of that

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element, right.

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Exposure and risk.

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I think it's

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a very different proposition

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insuring a wind farm

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compared to an oil and gas, asset.

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Yeah.

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You know, at the moment

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most of the risk in offshore

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wind is construction. Yeah.

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And you're essentially

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repeating the same process 100 times.

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Say on average. Right.

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Whereas with upstream oil and gas

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it's typically

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one asset or a couple of assets.

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So you know from a

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from a risk perspective, yes.

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You've got the marine element

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and you know, you've got marine

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warranty surveyors and yeah,

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whatever else to to help you with that.

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But also, you know

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the the process and the exposure is,

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is quite different.

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It's very, it's a lot of attritional

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and you don't have so much that kind

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of peaky exposure like you have

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with

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with the oil and gas.

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But there are certainly things

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that you can take, right?

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So, yeah,

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like I said, you know, the,

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the marine warranty part,

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something that's,

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that's really,

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really important to get that right.

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Yeah.

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I think offshore wind, you know,

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in maybe infancy,

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if you want to call it that.

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There probably wasn't enough

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focus on that, that side of things.

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Yeah.

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That kind of third

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party review and attendance and agreement

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to the kind of the processes

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that that they were going to go through.

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Yeah.

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so that definitely is, is vital.

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I mean, I think just

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looking more kind of from a

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technological perspective.

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Upstream oil and gas

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from a, you know, construction wise,

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it's benefitted a lot from codes

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and standardisation of the assets.

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Yeah.

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And offshore wind,

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you know, it's probably the opposite

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end of the scale

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really a lot of the time

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is that even for fixed foundation

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offshore wind.

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yes, I would say so.

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I mean, you know, it's incredibly common

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from a kind of project perspective.

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Yeah.

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When you get something in

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a lot of the times, the turbines

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that are going to be used.

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Haven’t passed type cert yet.

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So in other words,

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they're not a proven design effectively

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is what that means.

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So you've still got another 18 months

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where you're going from the test

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turbines installed to, okay,

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you can actually.

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Well, you can use it

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if it's not type certified, right. In theory.

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But you wouldn't

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want to from an insurance perspective.

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Right.

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So, you know,

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there are a lot of

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elements like that where,

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you know,

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it's kind of almost

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pre industrialised, right.

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Because of this kind of turbine

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arms race,

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if you want to call it that, in terms

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of, you know,

294
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:35,760
it's got to be bigger

295
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,160
and maybe not

296
00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:38,600
necessarily better in all cases,

297
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:39,840
but definitely bigger.

298
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:40,320
Yeah.

299
00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,600
And you know, that does create

300
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,880
a huge amount of technological risk.

301
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:47,240
Yeah.

302
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,720
You know, from an insurance perspective,

303
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,720
maybe insurers aren't necessarily

304
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:54,400
picking that up

305
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:55,680
as far as the turbine is concerned,

306
00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:56,720
because a lot of the times it's

307
00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,200
covered under, warranty.

308
00:08:58,200 --> 00:08:58,800
Yeah.

309
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,280
Under the turbine supply agreement. Yeah.

310
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,360
But I mean, you know,

311
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:04,440
if you look at some of the kind

312
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:05,000
of published

313
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,000
financials of some of those suppliers,

314
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,400
you see, you know

315
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,320
large negatives against their their earnings

316
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,560
from exactly that. Yeah.

317
00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:17,200
Having to meet those,

318
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,800
those requirements for the warranties

319
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,120
they’ve given.

320
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:22,640
For turbines that,

321
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:23,800
you know, haven't

322
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,880
necessarily worked as intended.

323
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:26,280
Yeah.

324
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,920
So, you know, I think

325
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,400
there are some schools

326
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,360
of thought that say,

327
00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,160
maybe let the technology bed in.

328
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:37,960
Yeah, a bit more.

329
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,120
And that maybe in itself

330
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,880
will ensure that kind of long term

331
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,440
profitability of some of these suppliers.

332
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:45,840
Yeah.

333
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:49,440
You know, nobody

334
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,280
necessarily wants to be the first one

335
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:52,320
to do that

336
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,240
because the other company

337
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:55,680
will still be making a bigger one. Right?

338
00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:57,360
So yeah.

339
00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,160
Yeah, it's it's a difficult one,

340
00:09:59,160 --> 00:09:59,520
you know,

341
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,520
in a competitive environment.

342
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,080
But you know,

343
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:05,560
you can certainly see the benefits of it

344
00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:06,920
when you see

345
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,000
how some of these companies

346
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,000
have struggled financially.

347
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,320
Yeah. Of course, of course.

348
00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:10,840
Adam,

349
00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,440
how do you go about underwriting a risk like that,

350
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:14,760
or rating a risk like that

351
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:15,360
where you don't have

352
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:16,440
the same historical data

353
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:17,080
that you perhaps do in

354
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,160
traditional oil and gas?

355
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:21,000
Yeah.

356
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,080
I mean, I don't want to give away

357
00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,080
too many trade secrets right.

358
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,720
But, for us,

359
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,760
we always focus very heavily

360
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:30,880
on the risk

361
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,000
engineering side of things.

362
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,000
So, you know, we,

363
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,080
have actually,

364
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,440
a large number of engineers

365
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,040
across different technology.

366
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,880
So whether it's electrical

367
00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,160
or turbines or, master mariners.

368
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,120
So, you know,

369
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:48,840
we try to take

370
00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:49,800
as much from

371
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,280
the things that we've done as possible

372
00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,720
and then also lean on that expertise

373
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,880
to kind of assess the almost unknown

374
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,120
elements of, of the risk, right, to,

375
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,120
to try and, to try and get to

376
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,560
what we hope is an accurate rate.

377
00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:09,120
Adam, you mentioned,

378
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:10,240
earlier on about marine

379
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:11,120
warranty surveyors,

380
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:11,480
and obviously

381
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,200
they must be a critical part of it,

382
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,800
but we've seen them for many years

383
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,280
in the oil and gas industry.

384
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,640
So I thought maybe a bit of worth

385
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:20,560
spending a little bit of time

386
00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:22,720
just exploring that and whether.

387
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,800
Yeah, utilise correctly in renewables.

388
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,520
So Gary, in terms of

389
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,160
historically, what has been their role

390
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:29,160
on, on any given,

391
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:30,680
say, oil and gas projects.

392
00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:30,960
Yeah.

393
00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,160
So I think as Adam said,

394
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,120
an MWS

395
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:34,520
will give you independent

396
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,040
expert third party approval

397
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:38,240
things in advance.

398
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:39,600
but then also they'll attend

399
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,240
certain high risk, high value activities.

400
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,840
and issue certificates of

401
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,680
of acceptance when those, those are done.

402
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,080
My own view is that, I mean,

403
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,640
you'll barely see an oil and gas project

404
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,160
without some MWS involvement.

405
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,320
But my own view is that they could

406
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,160
they could certainly be used more in oil

407
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:57,560
and gas, and I don't know if that is.

408
00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:59,520
That tallies with your,

409
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:00,360
experience in renewables.

410
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,520
Adam.

411
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:03,240
Yeah.

412
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,880
I mean, I think, you know,

413
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,200
from my perspective,

414
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:08,120
I guess going back a bit

415
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,440
to my kind of background,

416
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,160
you know, I've over the years,

417
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,000
you know, been involved

418
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,400
in huge numbers of offshore

419
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,840
oil and gas construction projects. Right?

420
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,960
So, you know, that

421
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,960
that third party oversight element,

422
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,200
you know, it is incredibly important.

423
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,800
It's it's vital really.

424
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,800
It's probably,

425
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,280
one of the most important clauses

426
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,120
to get right.

427
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,040
I think,

428
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,480
whether it's exactly what activities or,

429
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,040
you know, the amount of attendance or,

430
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,360
you know what your

431
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,400
review, approving, COAing.

432
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,400
Like you say, in renewables, it hadn't

433
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,360
maybe had as much of a profile.

434
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:48,800
And I think,

435
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:49,520
you know, in terms of

436
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:50,600
also how it was expressed,

437
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,400
it was maybe not as precise as it

438
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:54,600
could have, should have been.

439
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,120
Implications of breach weren't

440
00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,040
always clear

441
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:00,920
or were clear

442
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:01,800
that there weren't as many

443
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:02,440
as there should be.

444
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:03,640
Not an uncommon problem.

445
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,600
Yeah.

446
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,040
So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know,

447
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,880
the Joint Natural Resources Committee actually

448
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,680
has done a significant amount

449
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:13,240
on that. Yeah.

450
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,240
issuing the standardised scope of work,

451
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:16,920
which I think we're on to

452
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,800
the second iteration of now,

453
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,240
which has borrowed a lot

454
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:22,920
from the one that was established,

455
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,160
you know, for the oil and gas, projects,

456
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,200
but also kind of adapting it

457
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,400
obviously for,

458
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:30,360
for renewables

459
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,360
and for the different exposures there,

460
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,360
just kind of from a

461
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,120
maybe a client or the kind of process

462
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,160
perspective.

463
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:40,920
What we do

464
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,680
see definitely in renewables is firstly,

465
00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:48,200
the MWS being involved a lot later in

466
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,320
the process, so,

467
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,000
almost,

468
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,560
I think it would benefit clients too,

469
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:57,120
you know, for them to have the MWS

470
00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:57,840
to have more time

471
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:58,760
to kind of do

472
00:13:58,760 --> 00:13:59,920
all the document reviews

473
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:01,760
and all of that kind of thing.

474
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,640
We've heard stories of,

475
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:04,240
you know, people

476
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,000
being sent stuff and told,

477
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,880
oh, by the way, load out is, you know,

478
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,320
happening in fact,

479
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,120
five minutes yesterday or something.

480
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,680
which is, you know, it's not.

481
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:15,320
Yeah. Helpful. Right.

482
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:16,680
And, you know, ultimately

483
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:18,000
the whole point of it is safe

484
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,000
delivery of the project, you know, so

485
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:22,400
the more you can do

486
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,960
to get the best chance of that,

487
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:25,960
the better.

488
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,280
And then also the other thing

489
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,280
is, you know, there seems to be,

490
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,920
almost, like a focus on the,

491
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,640
the warranty fee as

492
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,800
a kind of a procurement item.

493
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,080
So, you know, it's

494
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,200
it's a lot it's, it's

495
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,400
quite price

496
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,720
driven is, is the impression

497
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:47,360
that the

498
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:47,920
I've got

499
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,840
which you know, insurers

500
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,840
are the ones that effectively,

501
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,760
pave, right? Or contribute.

502
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:56,600
Yeah.

503
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,880
So the insured will pay it

504
00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,920
and then insurers will contribute

505
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,280
an amount from the premium.

506
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,720
You know for that to get done.

507
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,080
So,

508
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,560
yeah, a lot of the times that amount

509
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:08,520
that is contributed from

510
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,080
the premium is more than enough.

511
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:11,560
Yeah.

512
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:12,480
For warranties

513
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,200
it's nice to get a decent worthwhile

514
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,600
price right?

515
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,600
So I think from our perspective,

516
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,200
you know, we feel like it should be

517
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:22,960
much more about

518
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,680
who is the best person for the job.

519
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:26,360
Yeah.

520
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:27,840
Rather than who you can

521
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,360
maybe deliver it for,

522
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,880
yeah, maybe, the most competitive price.

523
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:34,160
Right.

524
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,880
It should be more about quality and,

525
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,640
ability to,

526
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:40,560
to meet

527
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,240
the scope with people

528
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,600
that have the right qualifications. Yeah.

529
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,240
Adam, when did you first notice

530
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,600
a step change in the focus on renewables

531
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:49,920
and going back to Franco's

532
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,480
earlier quote from President Biden,

533
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,360
if politicians always been as excited

534
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,360
about this technology?

535
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,240
I wouldn't say so necessarily.

536
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,200
No.

537
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,160
I think it varies

538
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,040
country to country, really.

539
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:06,480
you know,

540
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,320
I think the offshore wind industry

541
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,320
does really need a huge amount of,

542
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,120
kind of coordination at government level,

543
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,120
whether it's, you know, kind of licensing

544
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,040
or routes,

545
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,320
for grids or even grid investment.

546
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,120
Cross-border interconnection

547
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,600
between power grids as well,

548
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:29,280
because, you know,

549
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,400
you can't just pick up the electricity

550
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,000
and carry it somewhere else

551
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,640
like you can with oil and gas. Right.

552
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:37,680
Yeah.

553
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,120
Or, you know,

554
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:39,920
battery storage,

555
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:40,960
all of those kinds of things.

556
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:41,160
Right.

557
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,160
So, so it covers a lot of,

558
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,480
of topics that need,

559
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,320
political engagement.

560
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,320
Right.

561
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,840
I think in terms of kind of

562
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,840
industry growth,

563
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,760
probably,

564
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,360
maybe the last five years, I think it's

565
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:01,840
we've seen it

566
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,840
kind of really, really take off.

567
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:06,720
And I think that's kind

568
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,720
of coincided

569
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,280
with maybe a period of,

570
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,720
political instability as well.

571
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,720
In other regions.

572
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:19,520
Yeah.

573
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,240
Which obviously has fueled

574
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:22,240
that desire for people

575
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,240
to kind of have self-sufficiency from,

576
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:27,560
from renewables.

577
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,560
But also, you know, the

578
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:31,480
the significant growth

579
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:32,600
that we've seen of kind of

580
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,600
climate awareness,

581
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:36,120
you know,

582
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,120
it's it's really coming to focus since,

583
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,080
you know, the Paris Agreement and,

584
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:43,320
you know, people have,

585
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:45,240
particularly in the

586
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,360
last maybe 2 or 3 years,

587
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:49,040
you know, started

588
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,800
it's a lot more in the kind

589
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,920
of political consciousness of

590
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,320
and the public consciousness as well,

591
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:54,560
I think.

592
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:55,240
Yeah, as well,

593
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,800
which obviously lead onto that political

594
00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:58,560
aspect as well.

595
00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:59,400
What was interesting

596
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,080
when we were putting those statistics

597
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,000
together for this,

598
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:03,720
for this podcast,

599
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,000
was almost every developed

600
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,360
economy has either 2025 or 2030

601
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,760
targets for, renewable development.

602
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:13,800
And it's just interesting

603
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,520
that there is seems to be a virtually

604
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,040
universal trend

605
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,040
at a push into the renewable industry.

606
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:21,160
Do you think that

607
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,000
there are any jurisdictions where, yes,

608
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,960
there are supply chain problems

609
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,560
and local manufacturing issues,

610
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:28,760
but are there any jurisdictions

611
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,120
where there is a more holistic approach

612
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,720
where there is that

613
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,360
those targets are being met with really

614
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:37,240
good work on the ground?

615
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,560
I mean, I think it's interesting

616
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,160
that a lot of countries

617
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:44,200
have 2030 targets

618
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,000
and they don't have anything

619
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,040
installed yet.

620
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:47,880
I think it's

621
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,880
probably important to, to note that,

622
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,360
but,

623
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,240
yeah, I mean, places that have good

624
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,920
local supply, I mean,

625
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,040
I think it's a big

626
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,920
it's a big issue for the industry.

627
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,360
Really, you know, outside of Europe,

628
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:10,160
the only other place that you could point

629
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,280
to probably is China.

630
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,800
You know, the US, for all of the kind of,

631
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,680
the investment the,

632
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:20,400
IRA,

633
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,080
You know, and all of that kind of stuff,

634
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,360
I think, you know, probably not enough.

635
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,960
not as much as

636
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,200
probably they should have done of

637
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,080
that has been

638
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,600
used to, to bulk up the supply chain.

639
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,560
Right. That is the that's the US,

640
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:37,960
Inflation Reduction Act.

641
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:38,440
Yeah.

642
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,280
Which, you know, provides,

643
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:40,640
you know,

644
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:41,240
kind of

645
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,200
funding through various means,

646
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,200
tax and things like that, to support,

647
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:47,440
green energy

648
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:48,240
growth, amongst other things.

649
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,000
So if you look at,

650
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,280
you know, the US

651
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,280
and what's resulted from that, you know,

652
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,240
there's one cable factory, you know,

653
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,240
I think in Charleston,

654
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,200
there is one

655
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,680
Jones Act compliant vessel

656
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,320
which has been delayed a few times.

657
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:09,040
If you,

658
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,840
see the stories of that in the press and,

659
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,120
so,

660
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:13,600
you know,

661
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,600
for a country that that has got a lot of,

662
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:17,760
you know, a significant

663
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,760
target rise,

664
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,920
it's maybe lagged a bit on,

665
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,160
on addressing some of those supply chain

666
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,160
things, whereas, you know, you look at

667
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,200
China, there is

668
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,960
there are a decent amount of vessels,

669
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,440
there's cable factories,

670
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,000
there's turbine supply.

671
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:38,800
And there's also,

672
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:39,200
you know, a

673
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,600
significant pace of installation as well.

674
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,640
So,

675
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,640
you know, I think,

676
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,680
yes, certainly

677
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,400
other countries have maybe lagged a bit.

678
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,880
Behind in, in terms of kind of

679
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,160
implementing those,

680
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:56,840
those key things

681
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:58,320
that you need to make offshore

682
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,240
wind happen.

683
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,320
And sticking with the US, Adam,

684
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,560
aside from some of those issues

685
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:04,160
you mentioned there,

686
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,160
are there any other particular

687
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,160
challenges with offshore wind there?

688
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,240
In the US,

689
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,160
I think they produce certainly

690
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,120
a challenge in themselves

691
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:20,080
in that

692
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,440
it means that your, cost per megawatt,

693
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,560
per megawatt hour of electricity

694
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,000
is drastically higher

695
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,320
than it is in Europe.

696
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,320
Just because the fixed costs of,

697
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,920
taking all of the components over or

698
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,360
the vessels over,

699
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,200
you've got to do,

700
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,440
ship to ship transfers a lot of the time.

701
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:44,880
Is that a Jones Act issue?

702
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,400
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's,

703
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:49,920
the vessels.

704
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,400
Yes.

705
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:51,360
Is a Jones Act issue

706
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:53,520
until that one comes out of the yard.

707
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,040
Yeah.

708
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,720
But then also, you know,

709
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,920
you can't do all of the East Coast,

710
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,800
US projects with,

711
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,360
you know, one vessel.

712
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,000
Well, one cable factory.

713
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,400
I was going okay. Yeah, yeah.

714
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,200
Or one vessel.

715
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,200
Or one vessel. Yeah.

716
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,480
So, so, yeah,

717
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:13,000
I mean,

718
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,080
it does make the fixed costs

719
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,200
a lot higher, which, you know, that

720
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,920
that potentially harms the argument.

721
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,040
Right.

722
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,040
At the ballot box, you know, it's it's,

723
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:26,920
how much I think some of

724
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,160
the ones reported in

725
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,680
the press are kind of around 135, 140 dollars.

726
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,680
Which if you compare that to UK, I mean,

727
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,040
and what's the most recent

728
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,800
one is what, 65 pounds

729
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,040
or something like that. Yeah.

730
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,560
So yeah I mean it's, it's drastically

731
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,720
more expensive in the US.

732
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:49,720
Other things.

733
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,240
Yeah I mean

734
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,680
like I said at the start, you know the

735
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,000
that CAT element, at the moment

736
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,520
there is only one

737
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,040
commercial ish scale wind farm,

738
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,800
I think it's five turbines.

739
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:05,840
And then

740
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,920
I think there's another one which,

741
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,000
which is pretty much up and running now

742
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,120
as well. But,

743
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:13,920
you know, looking at that long term

744
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:14,680
understanding of,

745
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,760
of how these turbines respond to,

746
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:19,800
you know, that,

747
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,400
those kinds of wind speeds, ones

748
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:22,920
that have been installed

749
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,720
so far have been, fine.

750
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,560
Thankfully.

751
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,120
But you know, that, again,

752
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:30,880
you know, from a

753
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,360
you don't get a stochastic event

754
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:33,120
set from,

755
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:34,480
from five years

756
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,360
of being installed or whatever it is.

757
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:37,880
So, you know,

758
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,400
it's really trying to understand that

759
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,520
the long term impact of,

760
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:43,040
the higher

761
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,280
category storms

762
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,120
and higher wind

763
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:45,840
speeds on

764
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,480
on the longevity of the turbines. Sure.

765
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:48,960
We've mentioned

766
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,440
the Jones Act a couple of times

767
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:51,600
that it's probably, Franco,

768
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,120
if you want to give

769
00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:52,800
some background to.

770
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:53,280
Yeah, sure.

771
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,320
That is for people who may not know

772
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:55,680
or to be very well known to Adam.

773
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,080
But, what's interesting

774
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,040
is the vessel you mentioned,

775
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,040
the one Jones Act compliant vessel

776
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,800
that is under construction.

777
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,720
We've seen constant pushbacks

778
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,120
as to when that will be delivered.

779
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:07,720
It's looking like 2025

780
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:08,200
is the

781
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,080
is the most recent, published date.

782
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,160
So we'll see if that

783
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,440
if that's maintained.

784
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:14,480
But any event the Jones Act

785
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,600
just to give a little bit of flavour

786
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:16,520
to anybody who's listening,

787
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,160
who's not fully aware of that.

788
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,120
So it affects,

789
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:21,960
it's a piece of US legislation.

790
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,640
Or in fact, a number of pieces

791
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:24,360
of legislation

792
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,480
that collectively known as the Jones Act.

793
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:27,640
And effectively it,

794
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,520
limits trade between two fixed US points,

795
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,520
to US Jones Act compliant vessels.

796
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,040
And broadly that means,

797
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,880
that the vessel has to be US built,

798
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:40,680
which I think is probably

799
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,040
the most critical,

800
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,000
a category, but also US

801
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,000
crude, US flagged and then US owned.

802
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,240
And the issue there is

803
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,360
you can't just buy a vessel now and say,

804
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:53,560
we're going to make this vessel Jones Act compliant

805
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,360
because you'll fall

806
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:55,560
foul of the,

807
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:56,840
Jones Act requirement for the vessel

808
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,520
to be built in the US.

809
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,400
And the difficulty, I think, is that,

810
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,880
there's,

811
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,200
there are decisions from the US Customs

812
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,880
and Border Protection Agency,

813
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,920
which establish that every fixed turbine,

814
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,920
once installed, is a fixed US point,

815
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,480
which means that when you are,

816
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,560
transporting either,

817
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,480
per the Jones Act merchandise

818
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,800
or passengers from one US fixed points,

819
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,480
that could be a port

820
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:24,520
somewhere in the US

821
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,240
to a wind turbine in US waters.

822
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,680
That vessel has to be Jones Act compliant.

823
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,120
And of course, that's where there is

824
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:32,480
just not the tonnage to be able

825
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,960
to satisfy that at the moment.

826
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,840
So there is a workaround,

827
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,160
and that is

828
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,400
I think, as you mentioned earlier, Adam,

829
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:38,880
you either transport,

830
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,800
merchandise from other locations.

831
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,120
So you might go from Canada to,

832
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:46,200
your turbines

833
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,080
or you might use feeder barges.

834
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,160
And certainly

835
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,760
from an insurance perspective,

836
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,280
when you're making those kind of

837
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:53,520
equivalent of ship to ship

838
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,960
type transfers,

839
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,520
that adds another,

840
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,280
risk layer into the mix.

841
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,960
And of course, creates to put it no,

842
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,280
no higher than that,

843
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,080
inefficiencies in the process,

844
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,080
which must be reflected in the price.

845
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,680
I think it's also reflected in,

846
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:12,400
how slowly

847
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,840
some of these things are going in. Yes.

848
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:14,400
Well, right.

849
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,120
It's,

850
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,600
getting used to that.

851
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,440
You know, you've got to probably do it.

852
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,520
What,

853
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,120
three, four times

854
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:25,680
maybe for each turbine

855
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,160
with the foundation tower,

856
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:28,480
the cell.

857
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:29,600
So,

858
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,560
yeah, it does make the whole development time,

859
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,760
much more significant, which, you know,

860
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,400
renewables projects,

861
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,200
they tend to get

862
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,000
probably delayed more than oil and gas does.

863
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,000
Well, I think it's probably fair to say,

864
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,080
so, you know, just adding

865
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,080
that additional layer of complexity.

866
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,640
Essentially. Yeah.

867
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,160
It makes it, more complex.

868
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:56,760
Yeah. For sure.

869
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:57,960
That's put into context.

870
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,720
The US are looking at 30GW

871
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,320
installed by 2030.

872
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,880
And, you know, a project like

873
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,880
I think Hornsea Two is 1.65GW

874
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,680
and that's about 165 turbines.

875
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,480
So just thinking about that

876
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,320
sheer scale of upscale

877
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,680
that's required is significant.

878
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,240
Plenty to do before 2030

879
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,560
then to hit some of those targets.

880
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:21,000
Do some of those challenges

881
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,400
that we've been talking about mean

882
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,480
that insurers appetite

883
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,680
for those kind of US risk are diminishing,

884
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:27,000
or is this

885
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,000
still a strong appetite for them?

886
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,480
I wouldn't say it's diminishing.

887
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:31,600
No. I think,

888
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:34,240
you know, it's

889
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,640
it's more been about whether or not

890
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:37,440
some of those projects

891
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:38,480
would come to fruition.

892
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,640
I think, you know, it's

893
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,920
almost the other way around.

894
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,320
obviously we've seen certainly one

895
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,360
fairly high profile one

896
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:50,480
which ended up

897
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,480
not happening or getting withdrawn.

898
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:54,920
And certainly

899
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,000
there've been a couple of others

900
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,960
that have been at risk, high

901
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,400
profile ones as well, which of,

902
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,400
you know, had to renegotiate.

903
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,080
the Power Purchase Agreement.

904
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,720
Their PPA’s.

905
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,720
price, well, to be able to get enough income

906
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,880
to make the projects viable.

907
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:14,240
But yeah,

908
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,360
I mean, from,

909
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,120
from an insurer perspective, you know,

910
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,120
I think I think people are definitely

911
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,680
monitoring the cat exposure.

912
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,160
But, I think,

913
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:26,400
you know, from a general risk

914
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,200
point of view, I think, you know,

915
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,120
people are

916
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:29,920
people are happy

917
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,680
and keen to ride them from what

918
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:31,960
I've seen.

919
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,520
So we've discussed some of the issues

920
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,680
about vessel availability in the US.

921
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,920
But broadly speaking, elsewhere

922
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,800
vessels are available

923
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,800
and there's no similar pipeline issues.

924
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,160
I asked a very leading question.

925
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,480
Yeah. I mean,

926
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:47,760
you know,

927
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:48,840
vessel availability

928
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,320
definitely is an issue in most places.

929
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:53,960
Yeah.

930
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,400
You know, we've seen not just with the,

931
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,440
the delays to the one,

932
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,440
the that the Jones Act compliant one,

933
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,520
but also, you know, we've had issues with

934
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:07,880
other vessels

935
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,840
that were being newly built.

936
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:10,560
Yeah.

937
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,240
They've had to be

938
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,720
substituted out because, you know,

939
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,760
it would have put the whole project

940
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,440
back by a significant amount of time.

941
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,440
You know, if you're in

942
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,280
Asia, other than China,

943
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,960
certainly the, the remoteness of.

944
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,000
Yeah, some of those,

945
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,040
some of those places,

946
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,040
you know, that can add,

947
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,280
you know, a lot of time,

948
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,320
and also potentially

949
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,160
a lot of cost for mobilisation,

950
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,640
demobilisation if

951
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,920
you need to get

952
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,080
a specialist vessel

953
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,640
down there to do anything, really.

954
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:48,360
But one of the reasons

955
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,040
I knew that was a problem,

956
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:50,360
because I read your report,

957
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:51,600
we both read your report

958
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,520
with the Allianz report,

959
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,480
a turning point for offshore wind.

960
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,280
What would you say where the key?

961
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:57,880
Other

962
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,000
are there any key other issues

963
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,080
that came out of that report

964
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,080
that surprised you?

965
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:01,920
Perhaps?

966
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,000
That surprised me.

967
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:06,960
I wouldn't,

968
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,080
I wouldn't say to many, I think,

969
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:12,960
from my perspective, you would

970
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:13,960
you would maybe hope not.

971
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,160
But,

972
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,080
Yeah, I mean, I,

973
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,920
I think, you know, a lot of the things

974
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,640
we touched on in that were around,

975
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,600
you know,

976
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,680
there's a lot of growth planned

977
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,160
in a lot of different regions,

978
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,440
but certainly there are

979
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:32,400
significant challenges,

980
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,920
whether it's design, supply,

981
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,760
vessels, you know, all of those

982
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:38,600
key things.

983
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,600
But, you know, I guess recognising

984
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,360
the kind of the scale of

985
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,600
firstly the opportunity, but also,

986
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:48,560
you know,

987
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,400
some of the issues

988
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,640
that have to be addressed to make that

989
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,280
a reality.

990
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,680
So Adam another key point that was in

991
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,560
the Allianz report

992
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,000
was about cable claims

993
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,360
and in particular export

994
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,080
cable claims

995
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,360
being the biggest driver,

996
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,400
certainly by value.

997
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:06,880
are you seeing the

998
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,120
cable claims generally,

999
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,200
the cable market

1000
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,480
maturing in such a way

1001
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,560
that those claims maybe should lessen

1002
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,120
as time goes by?

1003
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,640
I mean, I think it depends on

1004
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,360
what scores to claim, right?

1005
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,160
You know, I think, you know,

1006
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,160
talking about marine warranty scope.

1007
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,440
Yeah.

1008
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,160
having that oversight

1009
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,080
over the installation

1010
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,080
process will certainly help.

1011
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:38,920
I think, you know,

1012
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:39,840
you'd be pushing it to say

1013
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,480
that it will disappear completely, right?

1014
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:42,800
Do you think

1015
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:43,840
the technology itself

1016
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,760
is improving to the design standards?

1017
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:48,960
Yeah, I mean,

1018
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,960
I think the cables are in use

1019
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,480
now that element of,

1020
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,560
the design side

1021
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,920
or those kinds of faults

1022
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,760
seem to be, you know,

1023
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:05,200
a bit

1024
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,440
less frequent,

1025
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,960
I think it's probably fair to say.

1026
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:11,600
But then,

1027
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,120
you know,

1028
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:12,640
with the

1029
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,000
bigger turbines or, you know,

1030
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,200
with the bigger wind farms,

1031
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,080
is that technology

1032
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,240
then going to have to move on? Yeah.

1033
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:19,760
You know, as

1034
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,280
far as kind of cable,

1035
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,280
kilovolt capacity goes,

1036
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,640
and then also, you know,

1037
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,280
the other thing is talking about

1038
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,240
going back to that supply

1039
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,160
chain question again,

1040
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:32,800
you know,

1041
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,400
new factories,

1042
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,040
you're going to have to have really tight

1043
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,640
control over the manufacturing, right?

1044
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,720
Because,

1045
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,040
you know, not necessarily people, but,

1046
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,520
you know, the equipment or,

1047
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,560
you know, the process, even the climate

1048
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,440
in where

1049
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,400
some of these places are located

1050
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,000
all of that stuff's

1051
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:51,760
going to impact

1052
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,280
the performance of the cable,

1053
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,560
you know, longer term

1054
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,840
so I think it's, you know, keeping

1055
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,840
that as tightly controlled as possible.

1056
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,520
Do you think that risk is exacerbated

1057
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,280
as these projects go deeper

1058
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:04,920
and further out?

1059
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,880
Certainly it will make,

1060
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,040
fill jointing a lot more challenging.

1061
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,440
Yes.

1062
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,000
Because, yeah, obviously,

1063
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,360
you know, you're going to have to

1064
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,200
get the cable up

1065
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,080
that's going to put

1066
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,440
probably a reasonable amount of tension

1067
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,320
on it anyway.

1068
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,320
I mean, even

1069
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,560
lays in deeper water, right?

1070
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:30,360
You know,

1071
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:30,840
you're going to have

1072
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,840
to be very careful about, you know, the,

1073
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,440
the bend radius of the, of the cable.

1074
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,200
So, so, yeah,

1075
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,880
I mean,

1076
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,960
you know, I think there is a decent

1077
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,680
still amount of near-shore activity

1078
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,640
that's, that's

1079
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,200
that we've got to go,

1080
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,040
but certainly into the future.

1081
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,040
If you're looking at,

1082
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,440
you know, West Coast US maybe,

1083
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,440
or somewhere where you've got,

1084
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,000
a much more significant

1085
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,440
drop off of, of shelf then,

1086
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,520
yeah for sure.

1087
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,080
Are cables going further out?

1088
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:12,720
Sounds like you're talking

1089
00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:15,120
about floating offshore wind.

1090
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:15,520
Yes.

1091
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:16,080
And actually

1092
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,360
floating offshore wind obviously is

1093
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,080
what is the the Allianz report?

1094
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,160
Franco and I've also read the,

1095
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:21,880
Franco was involved,

1096
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,440
I think in the IEMA report

1097
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,080
that recently came out

1098
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,240
and that identified some,

1099
00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:27,200
some novel risks in

1100
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:28,800
relating to floating offshore wind

1101
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,360
and some crossover with more

1102
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:31,560
traditional marine risks.

1103
00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:33,480
I think you mentioned you

1104
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,040
touched earlier on in the podcast

1105
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,040
about the lack of standardisation

1106
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,680
in floating offshore wind in particular.

1107
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,600
What do you think

1108
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,160
the offshore wind

1109
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,920
farms of the future will look like?

1110
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,680
What will they look like?

1111
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:46,080
Yeah.

1112
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,080
I mean, you know, I think,

1113
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,720
you know, floating is something

1114
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:53,520
that's going to be needed,

1115
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,400
to meet some of those targets

1116
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:56,240
that we've been talking about.

1117
00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:58,800
Right?

1118
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,000
You know, you get

1119
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,000
you do get,

1120
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:03,680
wind speed,

1121
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:04,640
which is going to kind of

1122
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,360
give you a better yield.

1123
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,920
the further away from the land you go.

1124
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,200
And, you know, there just

1125
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,200
probably isn't enough,

1126
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,360
space on the, continental

1127
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,320
shelves of the continents,

1128
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:23,960
to be able to meet

1129
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,920
the demand just purely with fixed bottom.

1130
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,560
So, yeah, I think,

1131
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:29,520
you know, floating

1132
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,000
definitely is going to be important.

1133
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,960
But, you know, there are,

1134
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:36,120
there are a

1135
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,120
few elements that

1136
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,320
that need to be looked at.

1137
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,520
I think,

1138
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,640
as far as that, that technology goes.

1139
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,920
What was interesting,

1140
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,840
I would say the most interesting feature

1141
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,000
for me, looking at the,

1142
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,000
floating offshore wind

1143
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:52,560
for the purposes

1144
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,560
of researching the IEMA paper, was

1145
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,160
that existing turbine designs

1146
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,080
will be used for,

1147
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,760
for those floating projects.

1148
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,600
And so the new bit would be the what's

1149
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:05,920
known as the floater.

1150
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:06,520
And of course, there's

1151
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520
no standardised design at the moment for

1152
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,560
any particular floater.

1153
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,400
They all seem to be very,

1154
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,520
project specific.

1155
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:15,200
But you're, so you're,

1156
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,520
you're taking an existing turbine design,

1157
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,720
placing it on a new novel designed,

1158
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:23,440
floating concept

1159
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:24,560
and what you're left is with

1160
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,480
is this kind of hybrid turbine

1161
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,120
that is half new floater and half new,

1162
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,040
existing turbine.

1163
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,040
And I just wonder what that does to,

1164
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:36,040
within the existing

1165
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,800
turbines, what it does to things like,

1166
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,840
the gearboxes

1167
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,520
if indeed the turbines have gearboxes

1168
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,520
I know some are direct drive,

1169
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:44,640
or the bearings

1170
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,160
or the housings and things like that.

1171
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,920
So that will be very interesting

1172
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,400
to see

1173
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,440
as even for mature turbine technology,

1174
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,320
to see how that copes with,

1175
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:54,960
being

1176
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,960
in a floating offshore environment.

1177
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,760
Yeah. I mean, I think,

1178
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:01,920
you know, even before

1179
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,360
you get on to that though, right?

1180
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,360
I think

1181
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,600
one of the, the big challenges

1182
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,600
with floating is,

1183
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,520
you know, being able to or not being able

1184
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,440
to at the moment

1185
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,680
do much

1186
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,680
in the way of in-situ, particularly,

1187
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,800
main component change outs.

1188
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,360
so everything's got to be towed.

1189
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,120
Yeah, exactly.

1190
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:25,640
That's what I mean.

1191
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,640
Yeah. Yeah.

1192
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,480
which and, you know,

1193
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,280
firstly, it's the cost to

1194
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,320
if you have,

1195
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:34,200
something that affects

1196
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,400
more than one turbine.

1197
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:36,760
That's, that's going to be a

1198
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:37,760
which we've seen before

1199
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,360
in offshore wind.

1200
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,000
Well, yeah, I mean you yeah.

1201
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,200
You see it with fix, right.

1202
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,280
You see it. Yeah.

1203
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,400
You know, often

1204
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,600
not as often as you used

1205
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,320
to, perhaps, but, having to,

1206
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:53,600
you know,

1207
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,520
uncouple the moorings, the cable,

1208
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,200
tow the individual foundation back in,

1209
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,320
depending on the design

1210
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:03,760
of the foundation,

1211
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:04,640
you know,

1212
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,240
what's the port availability

1213
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:07,440
like depending on the,

1214
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,440
the draft or what else is in there?

1215
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,560
so, yeah, I mean, I think, you know,

1216
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,120
one of the biggest things that will help,

1217
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,240
is some kind of in-situ,

1218
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,840
whether it's being able to

1219
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,360
lift the foundation out or something

1220
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,360
that attaches to the tower that can

1221
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:33,040
be used,

1222
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,440
you know, so that you don't have

1223
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,440
to, floating,

1224
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,560
you know, the, the vessel and the turbine

1225
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,920
moving around, which obviously could

1226
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,880
create a bit of a disaster, but,

1227
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:47,000
Yeah.

1228
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,040
So some sort of in-situ,

1229
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,560
I'm very much looking forward to.

1230
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,440
The day that happens.

1231
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:54,880
Adam, one of the issues

1232
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,640
that was identified in the IEMA

1233
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,040
paper was what happens

1234
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,040
if a turbine becomes

1235
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,360
detached and floats off?

1236
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:00,640
Is that

1237
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:01,160
is that something

1238
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,640
that keeps you up at night or not

1239
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,200
something you particularly worried about?

1240
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,080
It doesn't yet.

1241
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,120
Whether or not it will,

1242
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,120
I mean, you know, it's

1243
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,840
something potentially foreseeable.

1244
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:16,680
I think, you know,

1245
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,680
the implication of it is, you know,

1246
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:21,360
result and damage.

1247
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,880
Right? Obviously.

1248
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,800
But then also, you know,

1249
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,240
if you're looking at anything with,

1250
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:29,280
because, you know, shared

1251
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,080
anchoring systems

1252
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,080
or something that are being,

1253
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,800
spoken about at least if not if

1254
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,600
not done yet.

1255
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:37,320
so, you know,

1256
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:38,400
if you lose one of those, you're

1257
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,080
potentially losing

1258
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,200
multiple turbines in one go.

1259
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,200
And then depending on which way the

1260
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:46,760
the wind and waves are at the time,

1261
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,120
you could be losing quite

1262
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,520
a few more potentially.

1263
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,760
So yeah, I

1264
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,360
mean, it's, it's something that,

1265
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,720
that certainly we're, we're looking at

1266
00:39:58,720 --> 00:39:59,400
I think

1267
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,400
also it does depend a bit on

1268
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,600
the foundation design as well. Right.

1269
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,600
If you've got like,

1270
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,360
a TLP type foundation,

1271
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:09,600
you know,

1272
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,840
you're going to have it's something like

1273
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:12,400
ten times

1274
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,160
the upwards force on the anchor.

1275
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,200
So you know that

1276
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,200
that potentially is maybe a bit more,

1277
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,960
at risk of something like that,

1278
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,800
just because of the

1279
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,800
the ground conditions you need.

1280
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,160
Yeah, I think probably

1281
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,160
traditionally more foundations are,

1282
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:35,640
going to be more prevalent though.

1283
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:36,720
So yeah,

1284
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:37,320
I think it's

1285
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,440
having a lot of focus on that.

1286
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,440
And I think, you know, we learnt,

1287
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,200
the hard way from,

1288
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,240
incidents in, in the oil and gas

1289
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:49,240
world about the importance of,

1290
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,080
of having the right,

1291
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,080
mooring and making sure your,

1292
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,240
your chain is inspected regularly.

1293
00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:59,520
You know, how that mooring is set up

1294
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,280
and having a good kind

1295
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:02,760
of risk management in place for that?

1296
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:04,920
and that will certainly help.

1297
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:05,480
Yeah, but

1298
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:06,840
but that that's another interesting,

1299
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,120
I think overlap between the knowledge

1300
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,920
that's already there in the oil and gas

1301
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,240
industry certainly

1302
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:14,400
and certainly amongst insurers who insure

1303
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,800
traditional oil and gas projects.

1304
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,720
That knowledge exists

1305
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:18,840
about mooring lines.

1306
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,480
This is not really brand

1307
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:21,680
new cutting edge technology.

1308
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,160
What's different is it's

1309
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,200
being used to

1310
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:24,960
to more

1311
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,960
a wind turbine as opposed to an FPSO.

1312
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,280
And I think I suppose a risk

1313
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:29,920
there is

1314
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,080
you've only got

1315
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,000
perhaps three mooring lines as opposed to

1316
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,720
countless mooring lines on a FPSO,

1317
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:38,080
so, it creates

1318
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:39,360
a slightly different risk

1319
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:40,960
profile from that perspective.

1320
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:41,880
Yeah.

1321
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,480
But also, I mean, you know, stabilising.

1322
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,040
A semi or a, or a

1323
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:51,160
effectively a vessel. Right.

1324
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,480
In a FPSO, relative to a,

1325
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,000
I don't know how much if

1326
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,680
you know, quite a few times smaller.

1327
00:41:58,680 --> 00:41:59,560
Yeah.

1328
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:00,480
Floating foundation

1329
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,240
and how that's going to be affected by

1330
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,520
maybe

1331
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:06,920
a lower

1332
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,520
wave height or wind speed,

1333
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,200
you know, compared to those.

1334
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,880
Yeah, big scale assets.

1335
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,560
So,

1336
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,480
you know, I mean, there certainly are

1337
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,480
things that you can take in and,

1338
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,640
you know, people are

1339
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,040
obviously putting a lot of focus

1340
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,400
on, on modeling all of these things

1341
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,800
and demos and all of those kinds of,

1342
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,840
all of those kinds of mitigants as well.

1343
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,360
Yeah, yeah.

1344
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,000
Adam, a mindful

1345
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,080
that we've been talking a lot

1346
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:34,560
about offshore

1347
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,280
wind in particular, but,

1348
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,600
how about solar or tidal?

1349
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,600
You see, many of those projects?

1350
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,680
Yeah, I mean, tidal,

1351
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,360
we've seen a few at the moment.

1352
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,600
They seem to be more kind

1353
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,320
of proof of concept type,

1354
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,120
or smaller scale.

1355
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,280
I think, you know, from,

1356
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,280
from looking at

1357
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,880
sort of the amount of things that have

1358
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,240
that have come across our desks

1359
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:07,680
there seems to be

1360
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,680
perhaps not as much going on,

1361
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,600
yet in, in that space.

1362
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:16,760
Yeah. And then

1363
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,080
solar, floating solar specifically.

1364
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:21,840
Obviously.

1365
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:22,680
Not floating solar.

1366
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,680
There is quite a bit of already.

1367
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,600
But yeah, I mean, you know, if you're,

1368
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,680
if you're talking about truly offshore

1369
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:33,720
there's again,

1370
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,040
there hasn't been a huge amount.

1371
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,840
I think,

1372
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,560
there's a, there's a

1373
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,840
big target for that in China.

1374
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,560
And I think the first,

1375
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,160
1 or 2,

1376
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,080
truly offshore,

1377
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,080
you know, floating solar farms

1378
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,800
are being planned or started,

1379
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:56,200
around about now.

1380
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,680
So, yeah.

1381
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,680
And, you know, we have had,

1382
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,160
solar on water just in,

1383
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,920
inland, you know, lakes,

1384
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,080
obviously there's, you know, less,

1385
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,200
from a, you know, waves and all of that

1386
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,320
kind of stuff, the saline part as well.

1387
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,280
And. Yeah.

1388
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,520
So, so yeah, there are certainly lessons

1389
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:23,920
that can be learned from that stuff,

1390
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:24,320
but they'll,

1391
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,640
they'll need to be adapted for,

1392
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:27,160
you know, the,

1393
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,280
the truly offshore environment

1394
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,160
where we're going to see them and wind.

1395
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,080
So wind very much

1396
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,080
is where the action remains.

1397
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:35,680
Yeah.

1398
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:36,480
I mean,

1399
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,640
I think so for, for now,

1400
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,760
I mean certainly offshore.

1401
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:41,280
Yeah.

1402
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:42,200
Yeah, yeah for sure.

1403
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,200
I mean I think

1404
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:46,240
yeah floating solar.

1405
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:48,880
We'll see how how that develops

1406
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,000
and tidal as well.

1407
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,040
But I think, you know,

1408
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,160
looking at the developments

1409
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:54,040
that are out there,

1410
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,040
you know,

1411
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:56,720
the vast majority of the growth

1412
00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:58,320
seems to be in offshore wind for.

1413
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:59,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1414
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,800
And picking up on newer technologies

1415
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:02,200
as well.

1416
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:03,560
The power to X

1417
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:04,120
and hydrogen

1418
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,840
seem to be in the press at the moment.

1419
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:06,120
I wondered

1420
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:07,720
if there's any more recent developments

1421
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:08,520
in those technologies

1422
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,760
that you can tell us about?

1423
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,320
Yeah, I mean,

1424
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,120
those technologies have been

1425
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,160
spoken about a bit.

1426
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,120
I feel like,

1427
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:17,440
you know,

1428
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:17,840
in terms

1429
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,200
of actual developments,

1430
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,600
there's maybe a bit of a lag

1431
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:25,000
seems like we've been talking about them

1432
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,840
for a while now

1433
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,280
haven't seen too much,

1434
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:31,920
in the way of actually

1435
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,200
kind of full scale.

1436
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:36,800
Yeah.

1437
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,040
I mean, also, you know, the use, right?

1438
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,240
I mean, it's it's much easier for people

1439
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:44,400
to kind of,

1440
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,320
you know, electricity, obviously has.

1441
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,120
Yeah, far broader usage right now than,

1442
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,840
you know, hydrogen.

1443
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,640
Assuming the grid connections are there?

1444
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:57,600
Assuming they're there,

1445
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:58,920
which, you know, they're,

1446
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,920
they're not always.

1447
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,800
But yeah, I mean,

1448
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,800
you know, I think that,

1449
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:09,080
you know,

1450
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:09,960
those kinds of developments

1451
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,520
definitely are going to be important.

1452
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,520
But, you know, again, like, you know, at

1453
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,280
at scale, we haven't seen maybe

1454
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,640
as much, come to fruition yet.

1455
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,600
So I think that's certainly what

1456
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:24,640
what we're seeing

1457
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:25,680
from our kind of research

1458
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:26,840
perspective as well,

1459
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:27,600
is that

1460
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,720
lots of the discussions

1461
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:31,280
are about subsidies and tax credits

1462
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,560
that might be available

1463
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,840
for hydrogen in particular.

1464
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:36,120
And I think one of the most

1465
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:37,440
interesting developments,

1466
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:38,960
policy developments

1467
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,160
has been in relation to,

1468
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,080
what's known as additionality,

1469
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:44,320
which I think is very relevant

1470
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,760
to particularly green hydrogen.

1471
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,760
But then for offshore wind in particular,

1472
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:50,560
because,

1473
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,000
particularly in the EU

1474
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,640
now to have to gain hydrogen subsidy,

1475
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,280
you will need to demonstrate

1476
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,240
what's this additionality principle,

1477
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:01,160
and that is

1478
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:02,640
that you are adding to the grid

1479
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,720
or that you're adding to the,

1480
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:06,240
electricity generation.

1481
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:07,800
You are not taking that

1482
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,360
existing renewable

1483
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,360
power generation

1484
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,840
that would otherwise be used in the grid.

1485
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:13,960
You'll be taking that

1486
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,400
and using it

1487
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,720
for, say, production of hydrogen.

1488
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,280
So it's really interesting that

1489
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,040
the focus seems to be on trying

1490
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,440
to push projects down the route of

1491
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,400
if you're going to be producing hydrogen,

1492
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,080
you need to be creating your own

1493
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:28,920
wind farm

1494
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,920
or solar complex or whatever it might be.

1495
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,360
And that seems to also be helpful

1496
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,120
if there is a lack of grid connections,

1497
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:39,360
because there's another factor

1498
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,000
I noticed in your report Adam, or

1499
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,080
in the Allianz report about,

1500
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,320
just the the number of years often

1501
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,360
it takes for projects to get grid

1502
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,080
connection availability.

1503
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,080
Again, I think it varies, you know, from

1504
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,440
one jurisdiction to another.

1505
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,480
I think,

1506
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,400
you know, in the UK

1507
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,040
we have kind of,

1508
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,960
what doesn't look to me at least to,

1509
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,960
to be the most perfect system.

1510
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,600
because, you know,

1511
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:13,560
the transmission is

1512
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:14,760
built by the developer.

1513
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,000
Has to be sold within 18 months.

1514
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,440
And you have all of these kind of

1515
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,440
individual developments,

1516
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,160
you know, building their own

1517
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,840
transmission. Yeah.

1518
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,760
Which, you know, if you live

1519
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,560
somewhere where there's

1520
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,480
a fair amount of offshore wind

1521
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:37,720
going in, it's

1522
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:39,840
probably not ideal to have.

1523
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,000
You know, your back garden dug up

1524
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:42,720
every five minutes

1525
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:43,960
for another export cable, right?

1526
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,960
Yeah. Say, for example,

1527
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:48,360
but but also, you know,

1528
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,520
in terms of timeline

1529
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,360
to bring the developments,

1530
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,360
you know, to, to life,

1531
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,000
you know, having to wait for permitting,

1532
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,000
having to, or even just having to wait for

1533
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:03,840
a new topside to be built.

1534
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:04,800
Yeah, yeah.

1535
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,960
Whereas, you know, other

1536
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:10,080
countries, you know

1537
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:11,040
I'm thinking like

1538
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,920
Germany, say, for example, or,

1539
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,920
you know, Belgium is another one where,

1540
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:17,600
you know,

1541
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,600
they have more of a grid strategy, right?

1542
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,040
Offshore. Okay.

1543
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,080
Which, you know, then you're plugging

1544
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,560
multiple farms into,

1545
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:32,440
that transmission.

1546
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,800
Yeah. Yeah. So you're not.

1547
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,320
Well, first of all, you know, you it's

1548
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,640
you could say more efficient, right.

1549
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,560
Because you're only having to do that

1550
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:41,200
work once.

1551
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,200
Maybe you're building a larger scale

1552
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,040
substation or whatever.

1553
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:49,560
But you know, you're,

1554
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,560
you're looking forward based on what

1555
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,080
developments you have coming up

1556
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,080
and you're not having to then have,

1557
00:49:58,080 --> 00:49:58,440
you know,

1558
00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:59,840
however many

1559
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,560
amounts of permitting, however,

1560
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,120
however long of construction

1561
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,120
and all of that for individual

1562
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,600
for individual, grid connection.

1563
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:10,320
There's a really good,

1564
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,280
explanation of this in The Economist,

1565
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,400
Technology Quarterly back in April 2023,

1566
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:18,760
where,

1567
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,040
a number of these issues were discussed.

1568
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:20,880
And one of the key issues

1569
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,560
I saw in particularly in relation

1570
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:23,640
to the UK

1571
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,840
was that you can apply for permits

1572
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:27,040
on a paper basis

1573
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,280
before there's any planning.

1574
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:30,960
And then

1575
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:31,880
application to then

1576
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,440
consider a first come, first serve basis.

1577
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:35,440
So it means that often

1578
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,040
the applications are backed up over

1579
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,720
many, many years.

1580
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:41,680
Some of which are in that queue

1581
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,280
where there's actually no plan to yet

1582
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:45,920
to bring those projects to fruition.

1583
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,920
So it seems like a wider strategy,

1584
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,920
is lacking in that, in that perspective.

1585
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:52,440
Yeah.

1586
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,440
I mean, I think it's something that,

1587
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,840
it's definitely up for review,

1588
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,400
I would say, or should be, right?

1589
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:02,760
I think, you know, we

1590
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:03,960
there are certainly things

1591
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:05,840
that could be learned from,

1592
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,400
from looking at how other people do it

1593
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,080
I would say.

1594
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:09,960
Adam, we've been talking a lot

1595
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,040
about the technology

1596
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,080
and of course, of the size

1597
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,640
of some of the new wind turbines.

1598
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,480
And we often see some of the comparisons

1599
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,000
about turbine size

1600
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,560
in comparison with Big Ben

1601
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:20,400
or the Eiffel Tower.

1602
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:22,200
Have you been on any

1603
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,440
particularly memorable site visits?

1604
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,200
Yeah, a couple, I would say, yeah.

1605
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,160
I think,

1606
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,160
visiting,

1607
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,200
a large windfarm development in

1608
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,200
East Coast, US.

1609
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,680
And seeing,

1610
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,440
the they were about 1200 ton.

1611
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,960
Just the foundation for the,

1612
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,800
the tower.

1613
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,040
Which, you know, that's some serious scale.

1614
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,040
Puts it into perspective? Yeah.

1615
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:54,840
You do,

1616
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,000
you do feel slightly nervous walking

1617
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:58,200
nearby or underneath them?

1618
00:51:58,200 --> 00:51:59,640
But,

1619
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,720
yeah, I mean, absolutely huge.

1620
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:01,960
Right?

1621
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,240
And that's for,

1622
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:05,720
obviously, you know, the, the larger

1623
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:06,680
turbines, you know,

1624
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,680
if the, if the foundation is,

1625
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,000
is that size, you know, it, it

1626
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,560
it really does kind of

1627
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,080
open your eyes to it.

1628
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,680
Yeah.

1629
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:17,440
You know, tip height

1630
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:18,160
and how big

1631
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,160
the tower itself is going to be.

1632
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:23,040
So yeah, that and certainly,

1633
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:23,440
you know,

1634
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,680
seeing I recently went to a floating,

1635
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,320
demo as well off the coast of Spain.

1636
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:32,120
So you've seen the,

1637
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:33,520
you've seen them up close,

1638
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,800
seeing it in the flesh or in the metal.

1639
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:36,080
Yeah.

1640
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,640
And, yeah,

1641
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:38,840
I mean, you know, cool

1642
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,240
to see something like that

1643
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:42,320
that we'd be done,

1644
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,240
been involved in for, for a while.

1645
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,640
actually,

1646
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,040
in, in-situ and, and,

1647
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,040
you know, really interesting

1648
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,440
to see

1649
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,480
how that, that floater design performs.

1650
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,080
You know,

1651
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:57,920
certainly it looked like

1652
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,000
it was moving around a lot less than.

1653
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,600
Okay. Interesting.

1654
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,960
Yeah. Okay. Interesting.

1655
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:05,600
which, which was great to see.

1656
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,400
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

1657
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:09,680
And. And, you?

1658
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:10,440
Well, I'm afraid

1659
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,760
mine is less exciting, but,

1660
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:16,080
one on one, very cold,

1661
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,240
wet and windy half term day,

1662
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:19,680
we found ourselves,

1663
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,560
looking for shelter on Brighton seafront

1664
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:22,800
and stumbled upon the Rampion

1665
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,040
and Wind Farm Visitor Centre,

1666
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,000
which was exceptional.

1667
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,640
We got a chance to put our VR

1668
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,000
goggles on and,

1669
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:31,680
traveled up the walked,

1670
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:32,880
walked or climbed up

1671
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:34,080
a turbine, stood

1672
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,800
on top of one of the turbines on Rampion Wind Farm

1673
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:37,240
We looked out,

1674
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:39,080
the most interesting

1675
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:39,480
thing for me

1676
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,160
was to look at a real dissected cable.

1677
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:43,320
I remember talking to my daughters

1678
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:44,360
about this cable and saying,

1679
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:45,800
you look at the different phases

1680
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,400
and look at,

1681
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:48,400
look at the components

1682
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,200
and how important the cables are.

1683
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:50,760
And I really thought

1684
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:51,440
they were taking it in

1685
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:52,400
until one of my daughters

1686
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,160
just looked up at me and said,

1687
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:55,640
can I have a snack?

1688
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,600
And that was that.

1689
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,080
So, Adam, it's pretty clear

1690
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:00,000
from some of the things

1691
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:00,920
we've been talking about

1692
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,520
that renewables,

1693
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:03,240
is going to be

1694
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:04,680
a very exciting place to go forward.

1695
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,320
So what would you say for anyone

1696
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:07,600
who's listening to this,

1697
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,280
is an aspiring renewables underwriter,

1698
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,160
what are the key skills

1699
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:11,160
that they're going to need to have?

1700
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,440
Yeah, I think, you know,

1701
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:16,440
first off,

1702
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:18,000
having an inquiring mind,

1703
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,680
I think it's really important.

1704
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,680
I think being able to,

1705
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,360
embrace and and understand

1706
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,480
new technologies and,

1707
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,480
moving into new geographical areas,

1708
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:35,800
and, and also,

1709
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,000
you know, just really having that kind of

1710
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:42,800
desire to really, you know,

1711
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,080
help with enabling that, that transition

1712
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:47,960
that we're going through at the moment.

1713
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:49,920
Do you feel that you're part

1714
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:50,960
of that transition

1715
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:52,080
and part of that excitement

1716
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,280
that Biden spoke

1717
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:54,240
about in that quote

1718
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:57,040
that we had at the outset?

1719
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,920
Yeah, I mean, I, I actually genuinely

1720
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:00,960
do feel like that. Yeah.

1721
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,960
Because, you know, insurance

1722
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,560
for these projects is so vital.

1723
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,560
You know, there's a lot of,

1724
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,480
support from lenders a lot of the time.

1725
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,440
Yeah. You know, there is,

1726
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:18,560
you know, even putting

1727
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:19,280
that aside, it's

1728
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,600
a significant amount of investment.

1729
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,200
And, you know, without insurance,

1730
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,280
I feel like, you know, these projects

1731
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,640
wouldn't certainly be bankable as far as.

1732
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,400
Yeah, loans goes.

1733
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,360
But then also, you know, giving,

1734
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,520
the project the security

1735
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,520
to be able to deliver,

1736
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,440
what they need to,

1737
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:45,160
you know,

1738
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:45,800
in the event

1739
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,440
that something does go wrong,

1740
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:47,960
you know, they've,

1741
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:49,360
they've got,

1742
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,000
partners in, in the insurance market

1743
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,680
that they can rely on to help them

1744
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:56,400
if they have a problem.

1745
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,040
and, you know,

1746
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,960
also the fact that it is,

1747
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,960
you know, a technology and a a,

1748
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,040
area of development that so,

1749
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,520
you know, in that,

1750
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,760
that kind of discourse around

1751
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,480
climate and positivity

1752
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:16,480
and all of those things,

1753
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,000
that kind of go along with that,

1754
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,320
you know, I think that's really exciting.

1755
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:20,000
So, yeah.

1756
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,480
And any words of wisdom

1757
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:22,920
that someone maybe gave you at the start

1758
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:23,920
your career that you,

1759
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:25,320
you can remember? For me, I,

1760
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:26,360
I've been lucky enough to

1761
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:27,720
work with some very,

1762
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,000
knowledgeable people

1763
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,680
over the, over the years,

1764
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,400
hopefully have remembered some of, of,

1765
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:35,680
what they did.

1766
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,640
So, yeah, I mean,

1767
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,440
I think

1768
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,760
you can't always,

1769
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:44,400
have the perfect risk.

1770
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:45,400
You'd spend your whole life

1771
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:46,480
waiting for that, I think.

1772
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,760
So it's being able to understand,

1773
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:51,000
you know,

1774
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,000
what's imperfect about it, and and

1775
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,560
how you can make that work in, in a way

1776
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:58,600
that kind of,

1777
00:56:58,600 --> 00:56:59,280
you know,

1778
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,280
suits everybody as much as possible.

1779
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,760
I think, and,

1780
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:06,520
yeah,

1781
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:07,240
I guess

1782
00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:07,800
the other thing,

1783
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,560
you know, that I always try to,

1784
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,760
that I always try to do is, is

1785
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,760
just be mindful of, of people. Right?

1786
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,720
I mean, it's at the end of the day, it's

1787
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,720
everybody is,

1788
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:21,320
trying to do the best they can, and

1789
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:22,840
it's, it's just being,

1790
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,920
understanding, empathetic and

1791
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:28,520
and trying to

1792
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:29,440
see things from,

1793
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,680
from as many perspectives as you can.

1794
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,680
Right. Yeah. To get to,

1795
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,000
something that works so,

1796
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,160
so in terms of wrapping

1797
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:40,320
everything up that we've discussed

1798
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:41,480
today, quite clearly,

1799
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:42,160
there are huge

1800
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:43,800
opportunities in relation

1801
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,920
to the very ambitious targets

1802
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:47,200
that are being set around the world

1803
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:48,480
for renewables,

1804
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,480
and particularly on the offshore side.

1805
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:53,880
and secondly, that is not to undermine

1806
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,400
many of the practical challenges

1807
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:57,360
that they quite clearly

1808
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,400
are that we've, discussed.

1809
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:00,720
But what's reassuring to know

1810
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:01,720
at least, is

1811
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,720
there are numerous insurance products,

1812
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,760
out there to assist in terms of that,

1813
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,120
that growth,

1814
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,120
as part of the energy transition.

1815
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:13,080
and the other thing that I think

1816
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,240
is really fascinating

1817
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:15,320
about the discussion we've had

1818
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,000
is there are, of course,

1819
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:21,120
many overlaps between, oil and gas and,

1820
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,440
traditional natural resources insurance,

1821
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:24,440
but also in terms of the

1822
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,600
how those projects are managed,

1823
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:26,760
how they run,

1824
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:28,920
but also in terms of perhaps

1825
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,040
marine and marine insurance as well.

1826
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:32,120
But then having said

1827
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:33,720
all of that, renewables

1828
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,080
now seems to be its own,

1829
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,280
very specialist area

1830
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:39,160
of which

1831
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:40,720
that real specialist

1832
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:42,480
knowledge is, is required.

1833
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:43,640
So on that basis,

1834
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:44,480
thank you very much,

1835
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:45,880
Adam, for joining us

1836
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:47,520
and passing on that knowledge.

1837
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:48,640
with us today. Yeah.

1838
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:49,560
Thanks for joining us.

1839
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:50,760
Thanks for having me.

1840
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,400
And thank you, Gary, also as well.

1841
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:53,040
Thank you.

1842
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:54,760
I thank you all very much for listening.

1843
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:55,720
It's been a real pleasure

1844
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:57,360
and we hope to catch up with you soon.

1845
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:58,000
Goodbye.

1846
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:01,080
Thank you for listening

1847
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:01,920
to Risk Matters,

1848
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,240
the DWF insurance podcast.

1849
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:05,560
We hope you join us again soon

1850
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,240
for future podcasts in our series.

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